In this week's episode of Masters of Max, host Tom Butta welcomes Vernesa Ćutuk, a CRM specialist, to the podcast. Vernesa has a diverse career background, working with various industries such as telcos, pharmaceuticals, startups, and mobile apps. Most recently, Vernesa was the CRM Marketing manager for Sleep Cycle, the sleep tracking app with over 300,000 monthly downloads. Now, Vernesa consults independently, sharing her expertise in understanding the user journey and promoting a user-centric approach within companies.
In this week's episode of Masters of Max, host Tom Butta welcomes Vernesa Ćutuk, a CRM specialist, to the podcast. Vernesa has a diverse career background, working with various industries such as telcos, pharmaceuticals, startups, and mobile apps. Most recently, Vernesa was the CRM Marketing manager for Sleep Cycle, the sleep tracking app with over 300,000 monthly downloads. Now, Vernesa consults independently, sharing her expertise in understanding the user journey and promoting a user-centric approach within companies.
During their conversation, Tom emphasizes that simply having a CRM platform doesn’t make your brand automatically customer focused and that you need to actively engage users effectively across different channels. Vernesa also highlights the need to understand user behavior and segmentation to personalize interactions and optimize engagement.
You’ll also hear Vernesa talk about the concept of being a "T-shaped marketer,” the significance of balancing depth in specialization with breadth in decision-making to address varying customer need, and how brands can foster seamless customer experiences across different touchpoints—physical stores, websites, and mobile apps.
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Guest Bio
Vernesa Ćutuk is a CRM marketing consultant who helps businesses in unlocking the true value of their CRM by providing a holistic view of the user lifecycle journey.
Primarily focusing on B2C, Vernesa works with both large and small companies, providing strategic guidance and hands-on support at every step of the journey using various CRM tools.
With extensive experience in large corporations, medium-sized companies, and startups across industries such as telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, gaming, publishing, and healthcare.
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Guest Quote
“From the CRM perspective, as soon as we get their email address, they are entering the loop of onboarding emails, where we show them what we got, try to engage them in a correct way, different product features, et cetera. So not too much, not too little. It's always this balance. We want to check so many things, we want to personalize so many things, we want to ask them so many questions, and this is the perfect timing to ask them because they are new, they are interested.” – Vernesa Ćutuk
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Time Stamps
*(02:00) Vernesa's background in the industry
*(05:01) Simply having a CRM System doesn't make you customer-centric
*(06:56) How to be a T-Shaped Marketer
*(11:30) Drive 4x the value from your customers
*(13:06) The app lifecycle
*(17:13) Curating a "cozy" onboarding experience
*(20:58) Advice for creating a unified user experience
*(28:46) Rapid Fire Questions
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Links
Vernesa Ćutuk: [00:00:00] Is this T-shaped marketer that you need to be? So one part of the T is definitely in this CRM sphere, but then you have to know, like, when does it make sense to use CRM depending on where the user is in their journey? Is it the right thing to engage with them now or later? Do we do it in the CRM channels or do we do it in, like, some other channels?
When you have the user perspective and when you have like user journey envisioned, then you can think like that. So you cannot have one without the other.
Voiceover: Welcome to Masters of MAX, a mobile app experience podcast. Please welcome your host, Tom Butta, Chief Strategy and Marketing Officer at Airship.
Tom Butta: Welcome to another episode of Masters of MAX. Today, I [00:01:00] have the pleasure of talking with Vernessa Ćutuk who is a customer relationship management specialist, and has a really interesting career that some of you may actually be familiar with some of the products that she's worked with. So, Vernessa, welcome.
Welcome to the show.
Vernesa Ćutuk: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be
Tom Butta: here. Are we talking to you all the way in Sweden?
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yes, I'm stuck on Sweden. That's fantastic. Yes, waiting for the spring to come to Sweden. It's a, it's a tough
Tom Butta: one. Yeah. Um, I've had the pleasure of visiting Stockholm and I must say it's, it's, it's a fantastic city and it's a beautiful city.
And it was in the month of January, so I look forward to getting back one day. So, anyway, thank you for taking time to be with us. Everybody talks about how customer is king, you know, and everything should revolve around the customer, should be at the center of everything and, and you've been in the middle of all of that for, for a long time as a practitioner of [00:02:00] it.
Maybe tell us a little bit about. Your career and how you get to where you are today.
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah, I love the description that you just described, like you are middle, in the middle of it. Uh, and that's, that's exactly what I like about CRM because you, it feels like it every day, like you are In the middle of the heart of, of any company, because you, you have this user centric approach and you are promoting the user voice in the company.
Uh, so I started working with the CRM actually very spontaneously, but then it grow on, on. Me and, uh, I, I work for several different industries, uh, with big companies like telcos and pharmaceuticals, uh, but also with smaller companies and startups and, uh, mobile apps. And now I'm a CRM marketing consultant, helping companies big or middle or small sized to improve their CRM, no matter where they are in maturity [00:03:00] wise in their CRM journey.
Tom Butta: Excellent. And so, uh, are there some highlights in your career you can share? I mean, as an example, I happen to, you know, know a lot about the app that you worked with, uh, SleepCycle. Yeah.
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah. It's very, it's like, uh, it's, it's different, of course, to work for the big team. Telco and, uh, improve the CRM there because you are part of a bigger team, but then you are like one man show at sleep cycle where you are, you are CRM.
Uh, so it requires many other, uh, aspects of your knowledge base and of your background that you get to test all the different things, like for example, in working with CRM on, on, for a mobile app or a subscription app. Uh, like sleep cycle means that you really have to connect on daily basis with the product, with the developers, with all the tech side of, of the story, but also with, with marketing.
So you are like very well connected on daily basis versus on bigger, you are part [00:04:00] of a larger team and you are part of a CRM department or, uh, et cetera. So you don't have that, that, that. Large communication with others on a daily basis.
Tom Butta: So that, I guess that's really what you meant when you said you feel like you're in the middle, uh, in the middle of things.
That's interesting. I mean, that's a good thing, right? Would you say that you're the advocate for the, for the customer?
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah, definitely. We have voice of the customer in a company. It's like, Oh, have you considered the users? Have you considered interviewing those users? Have you considered doing small little survey with the users to just feel the temperature or the vibe of, for example, if product wants to introduce a new feature or a new product, that's like a plus.
Perfect way of using CRM and CRM tools to test out if that feature may even make sense before you put in the resources and time in developing that, because we all know that. It's time consuming and [00:05:00] resource consuming.
Tom Butta: You know, it's, it's interesting. Maybe this is maybe just my view, um, but it seems like ever since the term CRM, Customer Relationship Management, was first created, There's been an expectation that, oh, we have a CRM system, therefore, you know, we are very customer centric.
Um, but that's just a CRM system, a technology system, a piece of software, is, is just an enabling capability, right? I'd be interested to see how you think about, Using, you know, you said using these tools, but actually understanding how to use them effectively to, in fact, build that relationship with the customer, which is the ultimate goal.
Vernesa Ćutuk: Exactly. Yeah. When working with CRM, you want to find ways to engage with the users, with relevant messaging, with the correct frequency, with correct timing. And the tools, of course, and as you [00:06:00] said, enables you to do that in different channels. So omni channel approach, that is like, One part of the puzzle, but then you need to find all these, uh, out of the segmentation, out of the data, out of all of these data event points that you have in that system.
You have to make sense of it. You have to find ways. When is the best timing? What is the best to communicate? Uh, uh, how often should we do that? At which time? Et cetera. So that makes it. A bit trickier. So then it goes beyond your system, which is like, I see it as a enabler, like motor to send out different messaging, but you have to have done a lot of pre work beforehand for that to be qualitative, for that to be relevant for the user, for that to be personalized, etc.
So, It's just one part of the puzzle.
Tom Butta: Definitely. It seems like this function. Mm-Hmm. is [00:07:00] both at the same time, a specialist and a generalist. Right. I think you're a specialist in being that voice of the customer and really being that advocate for ensuring that all different parts of the company are paying attention.
Right, to what matters and in this case, the customer, but at the same time, you have to be a generalist because you have to know what those parts are and actually know maybe what is a good practice and maybe what's not a good practice and where to pull and where not to go. You know, is that, is that true?
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah, it's true. Yeah. Describe Perfectly, because it's this T shaped marketer that you need to be. So, so my one part of the T is definitely in this CRM, uh, sphere, but then you have to know, like, when does it make sense to use CRM depending on where the user is in their journey. So you need to know, like, uh, is [00:08:00] it the right thing to engage with them now or later?
Do we do it in the CRM channels or do we do it in like some other channels? Uh, so when you have the user perspective and you, when, when you have like user journey, like envisioned, then you can, you can think like that. So you cannot have one without the other. Like the T is really important to not be too deep in the specialist role and not broad enough to understand, like, To be able to prioritize, to be able to know what to do next based on the certain situation.
Even when I work with now with different companies, it's like, what part of CRM do I need to activate at the moment for this company? Because it doesn't make sense to do it at this point in time, maybe later, but now we need to do this. So yeah, definitely T shape marketer.
Tom Butta: Interesting. I had, I've actually never heard that expression [00:09:00] before.
Want to go deep or go broad. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, cool. Well, uh, so you learn, you learn something every day. That's good. Do you think, I mentioned a little bit before about like expectations, you know, again, we've got a system, okay. Or we have somebody in that job. Do you think that there's realistic expectations about what's possible?
Cause it doesn't. And my thesis is that as a specialist, there's only so much you can do because of the influence that is required across so many different other functions. But has that been your experience or do you think people have some realistic expectations?
Vernesa Ćutuk: It was different when I was working for in a role as a part of like, for example, a sleep cycle, I was the, the ex like CRM.
The CRM, but then when you are in a bigger company, it's harder to influence that experience. And now in a role as a consultant, when I [00:10:00] have several, I'm at the advisor. So companies approach me for advice, like what should we do now? What, what is possible to do? So then. It's like another perspective. You are entering that from another perspective, which is more like advisory, strategic, uh, but being only a specialist who is executing and only doing the operational tactical things, I can understand that the feeling is like, Oh, there is not so much.
to influence. So that's why I also enjoy working, uh, with as, as like my own consultant, because not only do I get to see how others do, and that's the knowledge, of course, that is that companies like to hear, like, how do others do and how do they succeed? But also like, uh, it's very transferable knowledge.
So if I see at one customer, something is working and they are, On the same page, like in the same maturity at the other client, I can immediately transfer that knowledge. [00:11:00] So it depends, like if you have this specialist role in a big company, then yeah, you can, you can do a little tweaks and tricks, uh, to prove that it could be done in a different way or some strategic project where you can, uh, do some use cases where you can prove that it can be done differently.
But I find it harder to get this, uh, adherence from others when you, when you are just a specialist in a big company.
Tom Butta: So, yeah. I noticed on your website, you have a bold claim and you basically say, you know, talk to me if you want to drive four times the value, revenue, whatever it might be from, from, from customers.
Why did you make that claim and how can you back that up? Why do you have that belief?
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah, it's not just a belief. Proven to be like that, like from not adding the value and then improving it four times more on revenue on the last line or like [00:12:00] incremental revenue, which is possible, especially with companies that haven't done so much, uh, CRM and that haven't given it enough tries.
We've done a lot of A B testing through reach those levels of engagement. And it happened both in the, uh, when tweaking on the onboarding journey, but also in tweaking on a dormant user journey, et cetera. I'm talking now about this automated journeys that we built for, for the users. Uh, so we managed with those numbers.
So, uh, that is one of the wins that I've had throughout my, uh, my career. Uh, experience. So,
Tom Butta: yeah, that's great. I mean, uh, like everybody pays attention to revenue growth. So, yes,
Vernesa Ćutuk: yes. And it's something that is not so, uh, like CRM is more engagement. It's not revenue, but the consequence of engagement usually is revenue.
And also. To reach [00:13:00] these incremental ones, like you can, you can really tweak and get it through the CRM as well.
Tom Butta: So you talked about, call it a life cycle of a customer. We often talk about the app life cycle. It's similar, whether it's, whether it's an app or whether it's just a relationship. The way we think about the process is there's like discovery, which is like, how do you find out, right?
In the case of an app, you might see ads, you can click to download, or you might Do a search in the app store where actually, you know, the majority of actually downloads occur from search and then you move into what happens next, which is, um, activating, uh, signing up, right, putting in your data, being asked appropriate and in some cases inappropriate questions at that moment, um, so that you can then have a more Quote, personalized experience that's catered to your own interests and needs.
And then, then you get off on the path of starting to [00:14:00] engage, right? And then, and there's, that goes through lots of different, um, lots of different iterations to the point where hopefully you're getting to what you, you know, point out, which is the consequence of, of really good engagement, which is revenue, um, and maybe even loyalty.
Right. How do you think about that, you know, the app life cycle when you're at sleep cycle, um, or that journey, that customer journey, you know, from discovery to loyalty? Yeah,
Vernesa Ćutuk: we, there are so many of these funnel descriptions and you described them really well. Uh, so in a sleep cycle specifically, when working there, We considered, like, I take over from the moment when they register.
As soon as we get their email address, they are entering the loop of, uh, onboarding emails where we show them what we got, try to, uh, engage them in the correct way, different product features, et [00:15:00] cetera. So not too much, not too little. It's always this balance, like you described there. We also were like, how many on the app screen, how many.
Uh, screens do we need to have? We, we want to check so many things. We want to personalize so many things. We want to ask them so many questions. And that's, this is the perfect timing to ask them because they are new, they're interested, et cetera. Uh, but yeah, from the CRM perspective, it's like when they register with their email, then starts this loop and then it's onboarding, then there is like.
After the onboarding, there is this, uh, upsell and cross sell, but that needs to be done after the onboarding phase, which should be like a little cozy environment where you feel like welcome, but not too overwhelmed and no selling and immediately, et cetera. Uh, and then comes the selling part, nurture part, and then it comes like, want to see if they are re engaging, if they are engaging, uh, those who are [00:16:00] Kind of start to sleep.
You want to wake them up in certain automated way. Uh, so you want to check like, when is like, when do they start to doze off? And then, uh, you have this automation where, where you, when they. And then of course, uh, the loyalty one is like our highest engaged users, what can we do for them? How can we have this cohort of users who are doing the same things?
And how can we replicate those users? So do we have like middle engaged users that we can copy, paste and Make them high engaged users. So it was all about, uh, engagement and re engagement. Like where is the drop off? Why do they drop off and how can we re engage them again and, and maintain the engagement of the users who do sleep with the app in this case, uh, which was one of the, like on day one, on [00:17:00] day seven, et cetera.
So the, the, the normal way I would say in the app world, like you have Benchmark, daily meditation apps and similar, it's like similar approach to it.
Tom Butta: Yeah. I love how you described the onboarding experience. We want it to feel cozy. Yeah. Um, I think everybody likes cozy, especially in the winter in Stockholm or New York.
Yeah. Um, it feels to me. The reason I'm probing in that is because it feels to me that that phase of onboarding is so key, right? People never forget how you make them feel. And that first experience from when they supply their email to register, to activate, The app, like you don't get a chance if you don't do those right.
So can you maybe talk about that and how you, what kind of questions you may ask or how many, how few or how many, you [00:18:00] know, you might, in order to make it more cozy or more personal or more relevant or more interesting. So
Vernesa Ćutuk: there, there, we talk about really close. Like work with product and CRM, because you have one experience in the app and then you come with another, hopefully not the other experience through emails and another experience through push messages or whatever you choose to, uh, have as your, as a part of your onboarding.
Uh, so there we had like, uh, close, uh, like how to do this very. Synced, uh, so the email that they get is, has similar language as, uh, as the prompts that they experience in the app and after how many, uh, nights of sleep, do they get some kind of like, I don't know, reward or something? And how can we enhance that?
So the email channel, for example, was always about like following the product, which is the [00:19:00] experience first thing in the app inside. You are really immersed in the app when you download the SleepCycle app. So, so there you have your first experience. And we, we try to Enhance it with the CRM channels as much as possible.
So that was our approach to it. So we are synced and the user experience gets like a wow feeling that you just described. Uh, we did a lot of A B testing. Like, what should we say first? Should we mention the products first? Or should we just Welcome them and list like what's in it for them, what can they expect from us, et cetera.
So we did both different tests and it actually is like, people want to have this, uh, they don't necessarily want to hear all the news flash things because everything is new at that point. So they want to like have this comfort of like, we are gonna get you there where you want to be. Like we're going to get you to [00:20:00] improved sleep and some of these, um, I cannot sleep, like I cannot go to sleep.
I want to wake up early, but I go to sleep late at night, for example. And so all these prejudice, we need to like talk about them in our emails. And that's a good space to talk about such, uh, Um, now I lost the word in English, sorry, the prejudice, um, prejudice you have about, like bias about sleep, like, oh, this,
Tom Butta: yeah.
Interesting. You probably learned a lot about sleep also.
Vernesa Ćutuk: Oh, I learned so much. Yes, yes. And you're all the time like examining your own sleep when you work for a sleep app. Maybe too much, right? Oh my God. Yes, like, why do I do that? Uh huh, it's because of this. And this is not true. So all the, all these truths that you had become non truths, like, oh, yeah.
Tom Butta: Yeah, I think there's nothing like reading a good book and going to sleep. That's a
Vernesa Ćutuk: good one. Yeah,
Tom Butta: exactly. Yeah. Cool. Thank you for [00:21:00] that. I want to just maybe shift a little bit here to the various ways in which we are communicated with, and also that through which we have. So, um, so we, we talked about Sleep Cycle and we talked, it's basically an app only company, right?
Right. Yeah. But many companies have two, if not three, venues, if you will, uh, through which people experience the brand. So those three could be a physical location. Right. A store, you know, an arena, uh, a venue, it could be the app, you know, or it could be a website. I mean, and then there's like all this stuff that you get communicated with SMS, texting, notifications, email, advertising, et cetera.
There are a lot of companies that have all three destinations, if you will. And then there's a lot of companies who just have two. Which are, you know, they don't have a physical storefront, but they have a, you [00:22:00] know, a digital storefront, and it's either through the app and or the website. How do you create a unified experience for the customer when you have these three or two, you know, destinations of, you know, Engagement, experience, interaction, whatever you want to call it.
What's the magic answer here? Yeah,
Vernesa Ćutuk: exactly. I have it, and then now you can copy paste it. But no, but I'm thinking immediately about, of course, CDPs, which is like customer data platforms that have this all gathered, because I know that, especially for the physical stores, you have it, like CRM is so important.
Probably store somewhere else. And I'm, I'm thinking all of this, like behind the scenes data, where is it? Uh, because I've seen it being a big challenge, especially for the big companies that have been there longer, not like smaller companies, but nevertheless, if you have [00:23:00] these different, like, I, I'm thinking you have to have a unified system that you need to have to store the data or the, At least it flows in some central way.
So you can re engage the user in the store, uh, who has, uh, just recently bought something, uh, on, online, uh, on your web place. And at the same time, he's a part of your loyalty program, which you have promoting in your app. So that, that could be like, uh, all the e commerce that have also physical stores usually have such, such a client.
So. Uh, it's not impossible, but I think it's, it's like orchestration of, of this, uh, different data that are floating around where you, when you need to find a perfect way, like what's this for and what's this is for? Like, why do the users enter a website? For which purposes, what's the value there, and when they enter the physical store and when they enter the app.[00:24:00]
And from the experience, I would say the app is more immersive experience. Like then you're really like devoted for that app because you took the time to download Versus in web. Uh, you can surf different webpages and different sites and just like shop around and the physical store is even now after COVID, I guess it's also like you, I don't, I don't even go to physical ones anymore, but then if you do, then you also must be like that type of user.
So I would like. Uh, see what cohorts of users are, the physical ones and what, and who is like cross, like they're using this, but for different purposes. Uh, so I think there is a market for them all, but, uh, but there's, uh, maintaining different needs of a customer. It can be one customer that has different needs throughout their.
Uh, user journey, maybe they are like the returns are done in the physical store, [00:25:00] but the buying is done on the web place or similar.
Tom Butta: Yeah. Oh, now there's this like melding of all of this where, you know, we, in our, uh, most recent study of, uh, 11, 000, uh, mobile consumers, we saw that one of the most dominant uses of an, of an app in terms of dominant growth areas was using an app while you're in a store.
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah, because for example, that's also something that companies maybe are forcing because for example, H& M, they don't have these loyalty cards anymore, but the card loyalty card is in the app. So they are forcing you to use the app in the store if you want to register your points, uh, at the cashier. So yeah, it's easier to gather everything in one place for when it comes to data.
So I guess it makes sense.
Tom Butta: So maybe just to ask a little bit more, are there different teams? Like, is there a web team versus an app team versus a [00:26:00] store team? You know, where's the glue? Where's the continuity?
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah, when I worked with, when, when there is both web and app, there wasn't any like there was like web team.
People, and then there are app people, because there are different developers for the app and the different like, but when it comes to data and flow of data, it's usually gathered in the same place, at least for a customer that I'm working with at the moment that has both a web and, and app. Uh, so the glue is in the data, actually, I would say, and then that data gets, Like sent to different systems that you are using to engage users and to communicate.
Tom Butta: So. But still there needs to, so it's great that there's maybe one source of data. Um, but you know, what do you do with that? How do you activate, how do you engage? Yeah.
Vernesa Ćutuk: You need to, yeah, you need to build bridges. Of course, like. [00:27:00] Marketing and CRM can only take one part of it, but then there is the product development of that.
Like, what, how do we want to be seen there physically, there on web, there on app? So there are so many traditional departments that would be then spread out on these three, like working with web app and, and physical. So, It's a tricky one. I remember when we worked in, um, with the telco as well. It's like, uh, there are, there are stores where you're selling like real, like iPhones and Androids.
And then there are like online, uh, subscriptions and then there are like apps. And there were different departments that needed to sync, uh, around the same KPIs, same goals, like driving, um, uh, the revenue, uh, forward from these different sources. Um, so what would be your suggestion to do to sync them all?
Well, I
Tom Butta: think that [00:28:00] There are, are many examples of these sort of what I would call disconnect. If you think about it from the customer's point of view, they're, they're, there's, these experiences are disconnected, right? And so to the degree they can be unified, that would be great. And, and that's one of the things that we're doing is, so we're obviously enabling a lot of different unique experiences.
That we're enabling brands to have inside of their apps to make the, to make the customer experience that much more intuitive, non invasive, and, uh, more personalized. We're, we're doing that exact same thing elsewhere. Can't really talk about it too much right at the moment, but the idea is how do you unify that experience, um, across all those engagement channels.
So this has been a great chat. We're going to have the last bit here, which is just kind of a rapid strike set of questions. And so just, you know, maybe say the first thing that comes to mind. First one is, you know, Android or iOS? iOS. Okay. Any [00:29:00] trends you're really interested in or? There are things that you've picked up that you go, Oh, wow, that's really cool.
Vernesa Ćutuk: Oh, wow. I'm so interested now in what can machine learning do for CRM because you have all these sets of, uh, data and you want huge amounts of data and interactions and engagement with customer to give you hints. What is the relevant message? What is the relevant timing and frequency, et cetera, uh, based on your user behavior and based on specific user, like individual, uh, so that I'm, I have super high hopes, uh, that, that it will bring us some, uh, clarity because it's a struggle, like you base everything on the past behavior of the users and you are guessing the future behavior of the users.
And I want. AI, like the real AI, meaning machine learning, to help us with that. So that's what I'm looking forward to.
Tom Butta: I like how you put it. It's actually, [00:30:00] it takes a little bit of the pressure off of the expectation. You like giving us hints. It's very, very good. Um, okay. Any shows, um, you're binge watching or you find, yeah.
Any
Vernesa Ćutuk: shows, um, hmm, super boring maybe, but what I come up with now is Young Sheldon. Young Sheldon. I binge watched it, yeah.
Tom Butta: It's so funny. I get so many different answers from everyone. It's really cool. That's great. That's great. So as you enter into spring and look forward to summer, are you too? And any vacation places you, you're planning to go
Vernesa Ćutuk: to?
Always Mediterranean. Always. Yeah. Going back to Mediterranean. That's where my soul
Tom Butta: lives. Any particular country?
Vernesa Ćutuk: Yeah, I'm, I'm originally from Bosnia and we go back there every summer and to Croatian Adriatic coast. So,
Tom Butta: yeah. Great. That's great. Great sailing. I understand. Yeah. I want to thank you for your [00:31:00] time.
Yeah, Vanessa, it's been a great chat, uh, with you and, um, uh, I look forward to seeing how things develop with your career and maybe talking again
Vernesa Ćutuk: someday. Thank you again for having me. It was a pleasure to chat with you.
Voiceover: Thank you for listening to Masters of Max, a mobile app experience podcast brought to you by the team at Airship.
Find out more about how you can help your brand deliver better, more personalized app experiences at airship. com. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to subscribe and rate the show.