Welcome to the first episode of “Tame the Mobile Beast” Today, your host Tom Butta is joined by Seth Matlins, Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network.
Welcome to the first episode of “Tame the Mobile Beast.” Today, your host Tom Butta is joined by Seth Matlins, Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network.
Tom & Seth discuss the challenges faced by today's Chief Marketing Officers - including declining budgets, organizational silos, and the ever-moving needle of customer expectations. Both believe it is essential for marketing to take on holistic accountability for the customer relationship.
Additionally, Tom & Seth both stress the importance of finding simplicity in a world that is becoming more complex. Seth emphasizes the need for modern CMOs to prioritize effectively, “knowing what not to do as much as what to do,” in order to leverage limited resources efficiently.
One final takeaway from today’s conversation is that marketing tactics can be ineffective if they are received at an inopportune time. Too often marketers forget to consider that which precedes their work. Seth highlights the need to integrate emotional context back into strategy.
—
Guest Quote
"If we do not consider that which precedes our work [and] the driving of experience, it's much less likely that the work will work." – Seth Matlins
—
Time Stamps
00:53 Meet Seth Matlins: Insights from the Forbes CMO Network
01:27 Who Owns the Customer Relationship?
05:27 The Problem of Organizational Silos
09:37 The Role of the CMO in Driving Growth
12:07 The Knowledge Gap in the C-Suite
21:57 The Importance of an Entrepreneurial Mindset
28:43 Rapid Fire Questions and Closing Remarks
—
Links
Seth Matlins: [00:00:00] I think maybe the biggest beast today is for today's CMO, who faces declining budgets on an aggregated basis. Marketing budgets are down 15 percent year over year, 30 percent over four years, and no decline in expectations, right? So it's a do more with less mindset. I think the biggest piece may be knowing what not to do.
Seth Matlins: While strategy has always been the art of sacrifice, It's never been more important today because the things we don't do room to those that we will do.
Voiceover: Welcome to Tame the Mobile Beast, everything you need to capture customer value. Here's your host, Chief Strategy and Marketing Officer at Airship, Tom Butta.
Tom Butta: Welcome to another episode of Tame the Mobile Beast. I'm your host, Tom Butta and today we are joined by Seth Matlins. Most of you probably already know [00:01:00] who Seth is, a bit of a legendary. Executive. Seth is Managing Director of the Forbes CMO Network. Seth, welcome to the show.
Seth Matlins: Thanks, Tom. Glad to be here.
Tom Butta: Great. You're often on the other side of this where you're actually interviewing many folks on panels and, uh, in podcasts and in live events. So, uh, we really appreciate to tap into your brain and your experience. So, thank you.
Seth Matlins: Well, for what the brain is worth and it's, it's nice to be on the other side.
Tom Butta: Good. Today, I really would like to focus on what we think is, you know, one of these significant challenges and as challenges go, it's a beast of a challenge. And that is the idea that, like, if customer is king and experiences the new brand, then who actually owns the responsibility of that customer relationship and the responsibility for ensuring that those experiences are everything that Customers, i.
Tom Butta: e. we, you know, want. What are your thoughts about that?
Seth Matlins: I think it's an [00:02:00] interesting question, and I think any consideration of it needs to be kind of parsed as who does and who should. I think, if I can, I'll take them one at a time. Who does? I think the unfortunate answer is usually no one owns it. And a lot of people have input into it.
Seth Matlins: Just to give away the punchline, who should marketing and the CMO? Absolutely. But I'll, I'll get to that in a minute. I think that organizational design typically gets in the way of anybody having a holistic view of it and holistic responsibility and accountability for it. Right. If we consider the customer experience, all of those things that go into both making and.
Seth Matlins: Keeping a customer, all of the ingredients, all of the interactions. All of the impressions. Well, it comes from a lot of different places, product, customer service, data, technology, investor relations for that [00:03:00] matter, and organizational design over the last two decades in particular. And, and, and I think, you know, maybe even more so more recently finds, you know, kind of marketing buy and try and quad for Kated, I think I made that word
Tom Butta: okay.
Seth Matlins: The responsibility. Is all over the place. Now, if everybody has to own it, somebody has to be responsible and accountable to it, right? To marshaling all of these resources, and that should be marketing and that should be the CMO, because if we consider the breadth of inputs that can Make a customer or cause you to lose a customer.
Seth Matlins: The words and deeds, right, that influence buying behavior for better and or worse. Putting competition aside, putting macro socioeconomic events aside, it's just a decentralized world and anyone can [00:04:00] influence that in any given moment. But it should be marketing, it just often isn't marketing.
Tom Butta: Yeah, I think if I may interpret, What you're talking about in terms of like addressing almost like let's maybe unpack the problem, actually.
Tom Butta: How do we get to this place? Maybe just to state what that problem actually is, the easy part of our job, particularly those of us that are leading marketing or leading a lot of a brand's efforts to, as you point out, both create value for and receive value from. In this lovely value exchange of us, the consumers, and we can actually relate to it because we are consumers of many, many, many, many brands and services.
Tom Butta: And so we have these experiences all the time. And one of the things that I think we can easily say is that we experience what I'll call this disconnected, you know, not unified, not cohesive, but cohesive. [00:05:00] I
Seth Matlins: think that that's exactly right in today's world, in today's landscape, everything connects. And the problem is organizationally, everything is not connected.
Seth Matlins: Boom. As a consequence, there is no 360 consideration of how to build, how to repair, how to keep relationships, and I think you're absolutely right.
Tom Butta: Yeah, and so one way to think about that is the organizational structure that actually is exacerbating the problem or maybe even causing the problem, what it's doing is it's creating silos.
Tom Butta: Absolutely. And those silos are, are, you know, there are many different types of silos. So first of all, you've got groups of people being specialists focused on independent and specific channels. You know, like, that's the web team, or that's the app team, or, or that's the, you know, customer service team, etc.[00:06:00]
Tom Butta: Those teams focused on these siloed channels have their own data, and often that data is not shared. Those teams often have their own, call it, enabling technology that are often not necessarily shared. Right? And those teams have their own ways of You know, of calibrating, right? I use
Seth Matlins: the metaphor of modern medicine to make the point you've just made, which is, like marketing, like enterprise, modern medicine has become so specialized, so advanced, that the medical community winds up treating symptoms and conditions and nobody has a perspective of the patient.
Seth Matlins: And that's the same thing we're talking about here. Specialization and complication, complexity. Have led to exactly what you said, Tom, which is, you know, siloed perspectives when integration is everything and really just [00:07:00] common sense, if I can say it. And we've lost organizationally any sense of common sense.
Seth Matlins: that actually serves the enterprise and the people who drive it.
Tom Butta: It's lovely to hear you say these things because I struggle with this all the time and I feel like as someone who thinks of the world in a holistic way that sees how pieces should come together, need to come together, and is advocating for that all the time, it is incredibly frustrating when that breaks and it breaks often.
Tom Butta: And to me, it is common sense. It's sort of, it's just logical, and yet you've empowered people to do the things that they're supposed to do as specialists, right? And they're doing their job, and they're doing it well, presumably. The better they do it, the worse the problem becomes, really.
Seth Matlins: I'd push on that a little bit, and I also think it's worth my clarifying that when I talk about order design, that is both at a, Full enterprise level, [00:08:00] right?
Seth Matlins: Total company level, but it also, the same problem is witnessed inside marketing organizations, where too many a CMO, for reasons good, bad, and otherwise, allows for that specialization to exist, as in fact it should, but isn't driving the integration that's necessary, and so it's a microcosm of the macrocosm within any enterprise, Which is you're seeing it in marketing works, not just companies.
Seth Matlins: And it is the divorce of the things that should come together to drive effectiveness is, is, I mean, honestly, it's mind boggling. And I'll tell you that I'm old enough that I remember in 1991, a book came out written by two professors. From Kellogg and the book was called Integrated Marketing Communications.
Seth Matlins: And
Tom Butta: I know it well,
Seth Matlins: very beginning, beginning of my career. And I bought the book was Phil Kotler and someone else. And [00:09:00] I read like 15 pages and I was like, well, this is just common sense. What are we even, how did they write a book? Like, like so many business books, it should have been a magazine article, old school.
Seth Matlins: We seem to have lost sight of the simplicity of that, which endures as we chase. The complexity of everything that's changing and you know, I think it was Einstein who said, complicated matters and complicated times require things to be as simple as possible, but not more so. And we're not so good at making things as simple as possible.
Tom Butta: Yeah. I like that simplicity of that, which endures. Yeah. Well, so we've talked a lot about the problems and we've even talked about the problem within the function that you say should own this ultimately or have accountability for it. Um, as you point out. Because everyone should ultimately own the customer relationship and the experience of, of those customers, but there has to be some accountability of how all that gets stitched [00:10:00] together.
Seth Matlins: Well, not only does there have to be accountability for it being stitched together, the person or persons who are ultimately accountable also have to have commensurate authority to ensure They're able to deliver against that for which they're accountable to and for, and that is oftentimes not the case, especially for today's CMO.
Tom Butta: Do you think that's the norm, more?
Seth Matlins: More and
Tom Butta: more. So it's, uh, kind of a losing game right from the start, if that's the case, right?
Seth Matlins: I don't know that I'd position it as a losing game so much as it sure is harder to win done
Tom Butta: this way. Right. So you would agree that this is a beast of a challenge?
Seth Matlins: Oh, it's an absolute beast of a challenge.
Seth Matlins: And it gets in the way of growth company by company, and it aggregated at scale, it gets in the way of global GDP, it mitigates stifles global GDP. By the way, I don't mean to suggest any of this is easy or simple. It is, it is the furthest thing [00:11:00] from either of those things. We are not clearing the path to growth.
Seth Matlins: We are complicating the path to efforts to drive growth.
Tom Butta: We're not clearing the path to growth. We're complicating it. I feel these things, right? And what I do and what I try to do. And it, it does feel like it's more complicated than it should be. And that's, that's when you talked about, like, there's, but there's, it makes sense, there's, there's logical reasons why it's actually happening, but there's a, there's a common sense of view of how, how to resolve it.
Tom Butta: So if the CMO is the executive that should, um, be accountable, should be given the authority to call it, unify, you know, these efforts, then, You know, what's required there? Like, what's required of, I don't know, the CMO's, you know, boss, uh, or even the board, you know, to enable that to happen?
Seth Matlins: The simple answer is [00:12:00] trust, but the more complicated answer is knowledge.
Seth Matlins: And it's where, it's where we start thinking about knowledge that we get. Into, you know, another beast, which is 90 percent of the CEOs of the world's largest companies have no marketing experience whatsoever, whatsoever, right? Let alone, you know, the smaller still percentage that were ever a CMO. Fewer still CFOs, CIOs, CTOs, right?
Seth Matlins: So the C suite lacks. Any knowledge of how marketing works, and because they lack any marketing literacy, if you will, they don't know what to expect, what not to, and on what timeline. Because they don't know those things, they're suboptimal stewards of the resources given to CMOs, and those resources are capital, human, and time.
Seth Matlins: To do what they're supposed to do. Now, again, I also don't want to pretend that every CMO is a brilliant CMO. That's not the case. And many a CMO doesn't understand, too many a CMO anyway, does not understand [00:13:00] that their job is in fact to drive growth, that their marketing objectives are business strategies, right?
Seth Matlins: And the, the absence of kind of any marketing IQ, and this, you know, I mentioned CEO, CFO, and the rest of the C suite. Also includes the board, gets in the way of a CMO doing what they are in, you know, hired to do, which, going back to the very beginning of our conversation, is to create and keep a customer, and obviously I'm stealing, you know, that definition from Peter Drucker.
Seth Matlins: It's why we see still perspectives that advertising is proxy for marketing as opposed to one lever within a marketing mix. That too often too many in the C suite see marketing as expense rather than investment. Too often too many in the C suite completely deny their own lived experience, right? They'll tell you brands don't matter.
Seth Matlins: As if the shoes on their feet, clothes on their backs, bags in their hands, cars they drive, [00:14:00] neighborhoods they live in, and things in their pantries and closets, materialized, you know, out of whole cloth. And all of these things get in the way of just being able to do the very hard job of marketing in a landscape, uh, As complex, complicated, fragmented as today's is, finding scale in today's world, which is, of course, kind of requisite to building scaled brands, is extraordinarily hard.
Seth Matlins: And there are a lot of things getting in the way of that. The expectation, I'll quote Rory Sutherland, a long time co chair of Ogilvy UK, that there is a perfect measurement. Right? That, that, um, his, the actual quote is, and this is from a post where he wrote a couple months ago, The false god of perfect measurement.
Seth Matlins: The expectation that there is certainty, that everything can be directly attributed, just defies common sense again, and just any understanding of human [00:15:00] beings or marketing.
Tom Butta: So that's a lot. Um, That's a lot. And given y your role as, as the managing director of the Forbes CMO, you know, network, I assume that your perspective is representative of all the things that you see and hear all the time.
Seth Matlins: It is. I mean, not everybody will agree with me, but it, it, it is, it is the sum of those parts and the fact that I've. You know, working as a marketing practitioner, I've been a CMO client side, agency side my whole career. My, you know, while I work for a media company, a news company, I'm not a journalist. I'm not a reporter.
Seth Matlins: Occasionally I write, um, but I'm a marketer. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, as the saying goes, not my first rodeo.
Tom Butta: Right. Yeah. Maybe we have similar background that way. Agency, client, client side as, as well. So I guess my question then is you talk about, You know, knowledge, there's this knowledge gap, right? There's education being required.
Tom Butta: You [00:16:00] know, I had Michael Kazan on as a guest in our first year. He often talks about, and on this episode spoke about, what CEOs need to know about the CMO, right? And I wonder is, are you doing any work in that regard?
Seth Matlins: Yeah, I mean, in fact, probably mid December, a podcast and YouTube series I'm doing with Forbes called the CEO's Guide to Marketing.
Seth Matlins: There you go. Order tea up. I didn't know
Tom Butta: this.
Seth Matlins: Yeah, to directly address this, and it'll be a series of connected conversations. That help to raise the marketing IQ or at least seek to raise the marketing IQ of the C suite and you know CMOs will be a large part of the interview mix, but so will CEOs, CFOs and others who have Interesting perspectives that can help the C suite to better understand again Very simply what to expect what not to and on what timeline so they can also just trust Not just trust their CMO, but hire the right CMOs, because amongst [00:17:00] the things the rest of the C suite doesn't understand is there are different types of CMOs, right, coming from different backgrounds with different approaches to and different experience sets, and while of course there are slightly different CFOs, The fact of the matter is the central job is essentially the same, no matter where you are or where you come from.
Seth Matlins: Sure, GAAP accounting rules change, but it's a lot simpler, right? And dealing with the black and white of numbers is a lot easier than dealing with the 50 shades of gray that color human attitudes and behaviors, right? And while we should absolutely empathize with The chief executive who has to deliver predictable guidance to the street, to the capital markets, public or private.
Seth Matlins: They're getting in their own way too often.
Tom Butta: Yeah, it's interesting. I, in my own experiences, I've, I've really valued working with executives that, that have almost an uncommon view and I'll give you an example, uh, right, [00:18:00] right now, our current CFO. I brag about him all the time because, like, he was the first to notice, guys, we're, you know, we're underinvested in sales and marketing on, you know, per, you know, as a percent of revenue relative to sort of what, you know, standards in our, in our category, let alone, like, super growth companies, you know, we seem to have some leadership gaps and the importance of certain roles, like, within, within marketing, as an example, and I found that to be extraordinarily refreshing.
Tom Butta: for listening. Because, what is his responsibility? His responsibility is to help create the structure to operate a business that is durable, but also drives predictable growth, as you point out. And ultimately to, you know, to both, you know, foster and extract the most value for the enterprise. And to have that perspective is often not one that you would get from a CFO.
Tom Butta: And I think, like, he's somebody that you probably should have, you know, on your, And maybe it's not surprising that [00:19:00] he had a stint as a, you know, in product marketing at VMware, you know, which, which like really made a big difference for that, for that company.
Seth Matlins: Yeah. But I think, I think you used an interesting word a moment ago, which is extract value.
Seth Matlins: That's two words because the extraction of value can only come up till and when there is the creation of value. And the ability to extract is a consequence of everything that precedes it. And again, going back to the beginning of our conversation, that outcome requires inputs and org design and an absence of knowledge.
Seth Matlins: Uh, fundamental knowledge, an absence of knowing what to expect and what not to, exacerbates oftentimes an absence of trust and gets in the way of the ability to extract value or certainly diminishes the amount of value you can extract because it's diminished the amount of value you've created.
Tom Butta: [00:20:00] So basically the road to creating and capturing value is, is, is the fundamental requirement and you need to optimize on both of those.
Tom Butta: So. Surely some in your network are doing this well, maybe some have figured it out.
Seth Matlins: Many.
Tom Butta: Are there examples, whether you want to name, you know, brands or people, or, or just, you know, reference the kinds of things that maybe they've done, that you've observed, going, that's really smart, boy, if more people can do it that way, or, you know, maybe they got lucky.
Seth Matlins: By the way, nothing wrong with getting lucky. You know, as the saying goes, better to be lucky than good. Yeah, of course there are some doing absolutely brilliant jobs, repeatedly and consistently lucky or not. Um, I do tend to try and avoid calling out, Um, anybody specifically, uh, simply because that just is kind of what, what comes top of mind, and I'd rather give a more considered thought.
Seth Matlins: But what I'd [00:21:00] say that those who are doing it brilliantly understand and drive is the integration. Is a holistic perspective or as much integration as much of a holistic perspective and therefore holistic actions or actions that connect together and are informed by that larger than usual holistic view or largely holistic view, they do not believe in the silliness of the bifurcation of brand and performance, which is, you know, amongst the most self defeating.
Seth Matlins: Constructs that enterprise, not just marketing, has had in the last two decades and, you know, they also understand that as marketers, um, there's a big difference between missing the mark and missing the point. Missing the point, I think. Is largely inexcusable. Missing the mark is inevitable.
Tom Butta: What's the mindset requirement for people to kind of get with it here?
Seth Matlins: Look, I think, I think, um, [00:22:00] you know, when I got to Forbes two and a half, almost three years ago, the first thing I, I kind of did was created our entrepreneurial CMO 50 list, because I think, A, Forbes has been championing entrepreneurial capitalism for 107 years, but B, because I think that an entrepreneurial mindset is essential to today's market, right?
Seth Matlins: When, when the status quo is oftentimes adherence to it, the biggest risk one takes, but at the same time, there are times when it serves you, right? So we wanted to kind of, you know, champion a mindset that says, Calculated strategic risks are everything. Calculated and strategic are two words that ought not get lost in amongst the three, but we also wanted to say, and do say that today, CMO shouldn't throw out the status quo simply for the sake of disruption and the sake of, of getting rid of it any more than they should be beholden to it.
Seth Matlins: Um, so we think an entrepreneurial mindset is [00:23:00] everything, but it is, again, I think this, that's an approach to business, right? The fundamental prerequisite. Is that you're a business person who happens to have an expertise in marketing, not a marketer who wonders how it connects to the business.
Tom Butta: Absolutely.
Tom Butta: Um, and, and you're, and it should be gold accordingly. This is great. I really am excited for your upcoming podcast series. The great thing about a podcast or a conversation is I think you get, Especially if they're done well, in my view, is you get to reveal some of the important emotional elements of the challenge.
Seth Matlins: Well, I think that there's an important build off of that. And it's one of the things that I think marketers too often forget and or ignore, which is the emotional context with the people they're marketing to. And that is a consequence of macro and micro events. But if we do not consider [00:24:00] that which precedes our work, that which precedes the driving of experience, it's much less likely that the work will work.
Seth Matlins: Think about how 50 percent plus or minus of the American population is feeling post election, right? Good luck trying to market today. Good luck trying to market for the next little while. That would have been the case regardless of outcome, to more or less half the population. You know, so it's, it's the, we four box all of this, right?
Seth Matlins: But we don't think about the context that precedes our work, that dictates, um, influences probably more accurately, whether our work will even be received. If you're not in the right space, if you're literally just the simplicity of a bad mood makes you much less likely to receive any message, just to see it, to give it the instant of attention that is required to give it that next [00:25:00] instant, anxiety, depression, stress, They all mitigate the ability for messages to be received.
Seth Matlins: Um, while happiness, of course, makes us more likely to bring in input and stimulus. Um, and we're not thinking about that, right? We cannot affect outcome unless we think about that which precedes the work.
Tom Butta: Yeah, that's fascinating. How do you measure that, given that they're, like, the emotions of yesterday versus the emotions of today?
Tom Butta: You know, maybe very, very different. How do you measure that?
Seth Matlins: I don't know that you can, but you can certainly measure, you know, I'm not even sure measure is the right word, um, frankly, right? Because that brings us back to marketing, having an attribution problem, right? If you look at, at kind of the iceberg of behaviors, right?
Seth Matlins: From a marketing perspective, like what can we measure? We can measure, you know, metaphoric and literal last click. We can measure actions. But everything that sits below the water in this iceberg metaphor, [00:26:00] experience, value, feelings, emotions, which are different things, so on and so forth, are what influence the things we can measure.
Seth Matlins: So most importantly, we can't in fact measure, though we can consider those things that lead to the behaviors we do measure. That, I think, you know, goes back to what I was saying before, the CEO, CFO, who has to provide predictable guidance is looking for an absolute, right? They're looking for absolute certainty.
Seth Matlins: When that does not exist, there is no such thing as absolute certainty when it comes to marketing, right? And so, too many a CMO, too many a marketer is relying on a data that looks backwards, not forwards, because there's protection in that data. Well, the data made me do it. The numbers said, well, if the numbers were Infallible, there would be no failures of any type.
Seth Matlins: And yet this, you know, I'm harping on the CEO and CFO again, they don't expect any level of the same certainty from any of [00:27:00] their personal investments, from their stock portfolio. They hope for the best, right? They make a educated judgment, but I think measurement is really the wrong question. I think, I think it's, you know, a consideration and, um, um, a qualitative assessment.
Seth Matlins: And then you measure the outcome.
Tom Butta: This has been a great conversation. Thank you, Seth. As if this wasn't a big enough, you know, challenge, a big enough, you know, beast. Is there another one that comes to mind? That's like, needs to, I mean,
Seth Matlins: there's, there's, there's so many that comes to mind. Um, from the pace of change at a macro level to, to, you know, how, when, where, with whom to integrate AI at a very practical level, right?
Seth Matlins: The role of creativity, the separation of signal and noise, the context I talked about, the attribution I talked about, but I, you know, I think maybe the biggest beast, [00:28:00] Today is for today's CMO who faces, you know, declining budgets on an aggregated basis, marketing budgets are down 15 percent year over year, 30 percent over four years and no decline in expectations, right?
Seth Matlins: So, so it's a do more with less mindset, which by the way, You should have as a marketer or as a business person in any environment, right? You know, a prosperous one, an abundant one, or a scarce one. But I think, I think the biggest beast may, may be knowing what not to do. Yeah. While strategy has, has always been the art of sacrifice, um, it's never been more important today because the things we don't do give room to those that we will do.
Tom Butta: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you again. So, we're just going to do a couple of rapid fire questions here just to close it out, but I'm sure we can talk for another hour. You've, you've got great perspective, um, as, I certainly
Seth Matlins: have no shortage of opinion that, I don't know that it's great perspective, but it is [00:29:00] opinion.
Tom Butta: Well, you know, your perspective comes from, you, you've been in the seat, you've been in multiple seats, different sides of the aisle, as it were. You're talking with a community of. You know, of these professionals, of us, um, all the time. Yeah, no,
Seth Matlins: the great privilege of my job is how many, uh, brilliant CMOs I get to speak to.
Seth Matlins: Yeah, that's great.
Tom Butta: Okay, so what's the one non utility mobile app you can't live without? Besides the Forbes app? Kindle. So that's where you do all your reading?
Seth Matlins: Almost all of it. I must admit. I just bought a book. I'm flying to London tomorrow morning, and for some reason I wanted a hard copy of Yuval Noah Harari's new book, Nexus, and so that will be coming with me.
Seth Matlins: And I will not be reading it on my Kindle, but my Kindle will be coming as well. Or at least my Kindle app inside of my iPad.
Tom Butta: So funny, right? That's great. Okay, are there any app [00:30:00] features that are your favorites? As an example, one of the ones that I found out was I can actually take all those spam calls and have them be directed automatically to voicemail because they're not in my contact database.
Seth Matlins: Oh, that, yeah. I mean, if you're not in my contacts, your, your phone call is going to spam, which is a double edged sword. Cause in fact, some people I do want to speak to, but yes, um, I can't remember who makes it, uh, but I absolutely value it saves me a lot of time.
Tom Butta: Anything else, you know, have your attention, you know, I know culturally or that things you're just intrigued by?
Seth Matlins: Well, I mean, a lot of things get pieces of my attention because my job is to pay attention to what's happening, happening culturally and, and where things are going. And I, you know, wouldn't say that I've got my finger on the pulse of what my 18 and 19 year old are listening, watching and, and, and thinking [00:31:00] of while far too old to ever be considered a digital native.
Seth Matlins: I'm online constantly. My phone is, is too often in my hand.
Tom Butta: Well, thank you very much, Seth. Thank you for your time. Thanks for your perspective. I think it's a wonderful one. And, um, I look forward to carrying on the conversation.
Seth Matlins: Me too. Thanks for having me.
Voiceover: Thank you for listening to Tame the Mobile Beast brought to you by the team at Airship. Find out more about how you can help your brand deliver better, more personalized mobile experience. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to subscribe and rate the show.